Originally by: Robert Caldera

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Originally by: Andrea Roche

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This also creates activity from the players as they can be killed of they forget to recloak.

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but the afk-cloaker probably looks from times to times if there is something, he wants to kill something pretty sure.

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Originally by: Mag's

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Edited by: Mag''s on 19/08/2011 14:31:21

Originally by: Andrea Roche

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This has got to stCCP talk about making eve a better place. You dont need a cloak that lasts forever.
Stop this "Uber" afk cloak once and for all and eve will be a better game!
It will reward activity rather than AFK!

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How are they affecting you, while AFK cloaked? I would like a factual answer please.

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Originally by: Mag's

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Originally by: Andrea Roche

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Originally by: Mag's

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How are they affecting you, while AFK cloaked? I would like a factual answer please.

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I honestly forgot about the question. I was too busy doing stuff in eve atm. Its not about "weak point".

Cloaking is good for grifing. And i am for grifing. I think this game would be bad without griefing. But its a "perma" cloak. Make it more dynamic since CCP is looking to make the game more proactive rather than pasive. Put a timer on the cloak and eve will be a more active game. The cloaker will get killed if forget to recloak. This has got to one of many separate threads i have seen people requesting this change for many years. Its about time! Make that change!

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Could you answer my question please.

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Originally by: Robert Caldera

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Originally by: Andrea Roche

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Cloaking is good for grifing. And i am for grifing. I think this game would be bad without griefing.

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yes

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Originally by: Ingvar Angst

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Originally by: Andrea Roche

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There is also that one person by himself should not be able to lock a system down just in afk mod. This is overpowered. Its ok to be able to do nice herass but to be able to pick the fights without no macro and had the oposition almost no chance in making a kill is simply not right.
There should be an element of risk. Siting in a system perma cloaked at a safe spot has no risk. This gam is about taking a risk and consequences. Make it so.
A griefer should be able to be counter griefed and get caught. THe present system does not not allow for it.
Every other item has a counter and has a way of beating it or a weakness or consumes some kind of fuel. Why this one has none?
How hard is to recloak after an hour or so??? CCP Macro, Dynamic and Active are your keywords. Implement, dont just talk about it!

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It still amazes me that people blame the afk cloaker for locking the system down when it's their own lack of balls that is doing it. If there's a stealth bomber cloaked in your wormhole and you know it, you can still function. You only function more smartly, expecting trouble, and prepared to counter it. Hell, null-bunnies have it even easier... they can see the clown cloaking and go to a different system.

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Originally by: Ingvar Angst

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Originally by: Andrea Roche

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Originally by: Robert Caldera

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Originally by: Andrea Roche

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Cloaking is good for grifing. And i am for grifing. I think this game would be bad without griefing.

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yes

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Its not like you will not be able to recloak manually. You can recloak manually. You just have to remember to do it after a certain time. XD

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So you're pushing for afk cloakers to use macros to stay cloaked?

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Originally by: Mag's

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Originally by: Andrea Roche

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I honestly forgot about the question. I was too busy doing stuff in eve atm. Its not about "weak point".

....Snip...

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You've still not answered my question. Are you finding the question a hard one?

How are they affecting you, while AFK cloaked?

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Originally by: Baaldor

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Originally by: Andrea Roche

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Read again what i posted. I must have given about 10 examples. I am not gonna repeat myself.

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No you haven't, you keep dancing around it.

You can not or will not answer the question directly for some reason....

Just answer the question in a simple sentence. here let me help.

Quote:

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I am affected by AFK cloakers because...

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Now finish the sentence.

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Originally by: Baaldor

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Originally by: Andrea Roche

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Originally by: Baaldor

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Originally by: Andrea Roche

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Read again what i posted. I must have given about 10 examples. I am not gonna repeat myself.

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No you haven't, you keep dancing around it.

You can not or will not answer the question directly for some reason....

Just answer the question in a simple sentence. here let me help.

Quote:

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I am affected by AFK cloakers because...

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Now finish the sentence.

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For those that connect read between the lines or cannot interpret...
Cannot decloak you
Cannot hunt you
Cannot herass you
Cannot drive you away
You have the decision when to strike always and i cannot do anythign about it
I never have the option to act first, always reactive.
I always have to wait for you to hot drop me and i never can hot drop you.

Its compltelly one sided.

I dont get it, what such a big deal to click cloak every once in a while?? Its not that hard is it??
Are you afraid of getting caught with bots or somthing??

Now that i had to put it in plain english for you.

Whats your reason??

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So you are afraid. Got it working as intended.

You should never know when he will hot drop on your ass.

Someone that is afk can not hot drop or shoot you.

He is just there.

You have created your own fear factor.

You are pushing for this to keep your bots safe.

My reason? I am a voyeur. I like watching you twitch.

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Originally by: Bane Nucleus

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Edited by: Bane Nucleus on 20/08/2011 21:05:26

Originally by: Andrea Roche

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Quote:

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For those that can not read between the lines or cannot interpret...
Cannot decloak you
Cannot hunt you
Cannot herass you
Cannot drive you away
You have the decision when to strike always and i cannot do anythign about it
I never have the option to act first, always reactive.
I always have to wait for you to hot drop me and i never can hot drop you.

Its compltelly one sided.

I dont get it, what such a big deal to click cloak every once in a while?? Its not that hard is it??
Are you afraid of getting caught with bots or somthing??

Now that i had to put it in plain english for you.

Whats your reason??

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So, just so I am clear, you are fine as long as someone has to click their cloak every once in a while. How would this be any different? You would still have a cloaky neutral in your system, just hanging out. The only difference is he wouldn't be afk and a lot more dangerous. Your decision making would still be reactionary, you still wouldn't be able to hunt him, and it would be all up to him to pull the trigger.

Your solution has nothing to do with afk cloaking and everything to do with wanting to feel "safe and secure" in 0.0 space.
Is there anything else Eve can do to coddle you while you play?

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Its not about feling safe and secure. If he is AFK or forgot to cloak up then it gives me a chance to hunt him down.
By hunting him down i will be active instead of reactive every time. Its that easy. And no i dont have nothing else i am unhappy about or need of any "cuddle".

Originally by: Mag's

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Originally by: Andrea Roche

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For those that can not read between the lines or cannot interpret...

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It was a direct question, why shouldn't it have a direct response?

Originally by: Andrea Roche

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Cannot decloak you

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You could. Sure the odds of doing so may be great, but there is still a chance.

Originally by: Andrea Roche

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Cannot hunt you

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Well it would be long winded exercise I grant, but you can prepare and reduce the risk.

Originally by: Andrea Roche

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Cannot herass you

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This actually gets closer to the answer than any thing else you've said. You do harass him, in the same way he does you.

Originally by: Andrea Roche

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Cannot drive you away

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You can, but it requires effort.

Originally by: Andrea Roche

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You have the decision when to strike always and i cannot do anythign about it

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This is a none AFK activity.

Originally by: Andrea Roche

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I never have the option to act first, always reactive.

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Another none AFK activity.

Originally by: Andrea Roche

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I always have to wait for you to hot drop me and i never can hot drop you.

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None AFK.

Originally by: Andrea Roche

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Its compltelly one sided.

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Actually no it's not. It's more of an exercise in trying to reduce your intel power and give the cloaker better odds. But it still requires you to be lazy and none reactive.

Originally by: Andrea Roche

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I dont get it, what such a big deal to click cloak every once in a while?? Its not that hard is it??
Are you afraid of getting caught with bots or somthing??

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Bots in 0.0 have the most to gain with a cloak nerf, let's not get silly.

Originally by: Andrea Roche

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Now that i had to put it in plain english for you.

Whats your reason??

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OK let me try and put it another way, as you seem to be missing the whole point.

While they are AFK, what are they using to affect you?

Now I don't expect you to reply "Nothing, as they are AFK.", as they are most certainly doing something. This can be seen by all the threads on this subject. I just want you to tell me, what they are using to create a reaction.

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Originally by: zljuka

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Originally by: Andrea Roche

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Edited by: Andrea Roche on 21/08/2011 11:04:15
Its not hard to press cloak every once in a while you know.
Its not hard to press cloak every once in a while you know.
Its not hard to press cloak every once in a while you know.
Its not hard to press cloak every once in a while you know.
Its not hard to press cloak every once in a while you know.

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Forget of pressing cloak once in a while, it'll only stimulate use of macros.

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Originally by: Baaldor

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Originally by: zljuka

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Originally by: Newt Rondanse

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If you can't deal with having a single neut hanging out in space in your system (who may or may not be cloaked), then if CCP actually fixes sovereignty in such a way to make NRDS a viable play style again you are never going to be able to undock again.

Just sayin'

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Nice troll. That "single" neut is often another pvp toon logged off in system, waiting for first to tackle something, or just a gang on other side of a cyno.

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Then he wouldn't be AFK.

You are trying to push for another agenda.

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Originally by: Robert Caldera

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Originally by: Andrea Roche

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Its not hard to press cloak every once in a while you know.
Its not hard to press cloak every once in a while you know.
Its not hard to press cloak every once in a while you know.
Its not hard to press cloak every once in a while you know.
Its not hard to press cloak every once in a while you know.

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yes, but if you are afk, you cant press a button (unless using some kind of bot). Afking in space cloaked is a legit mechanic.

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Originally by: Mag's

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Edited by: Mag''s on 21/08/2011 12:16:52

Originally by: Andrea Roche

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You are a troll. Instead of discussing the topic you are trying to go around the topic.

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Is that your fall back position, calling someone a troll? I'm not going round the topic at all, I'm discussing the topic and trying to get you to answer a simple question.

Originally by: Andrea Roche

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You say that there is a way to decloak someone when there is clearly no way when they are at a safe spot.

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I said it's possible, but the odds against it are high.

Originally by: Andrea Roche

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You say you can drive a cloaker away when clearly there isnt.

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But there clearly is and examples of people doing this are on this forum. Here and here.

Originally by: Andrea Roche

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You are playing with the word "AFK" when you clearly know what i mean.

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No, I'm using it's meaning, Away From Keyboard. I want to start with the complaint of AFK, not with what happens after they return and become active.

Originally by: Andrea Roche

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You say cloak bots have most to gain about but everybody knows that a cloak bot can make impressive kills even on ships that are not botting.

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I never talked about cloaking bots, merely bots.
PvE bots in null sec making ISK 23.5/7, tends to be the general thought of bots in 0.0, but you mentioned bots, not I.

But you make an interesting point though. Are you saying that cloaking bots can kill active players in PvP? If this is the case, just how often does this happen?

Originally by: Andrea Roche

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You are also completelly dimissing those people that are involved in real battles with each other and cannot kill their opponent cos of perma cloak and who gets contantly cyno on top cos they play the afk until random time and then attack at some specific time. Not to mention all the bots that run on cloakies.

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I'm dismissing it because it moves the goal posts from my original question. When we have addressed the first question, we can then move the discussion forward.

Originally by: Andrea Roche

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So you are trying to excuse laziness or fear of recloaking manually with bots and only those bots that rat. Unacceptable. You are sacrificing the overral game over bot ratters. If u got bots in your list report them just like i do or kill them.

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You mentioned bots, I responded to your post about them and now you are putting words into my mouth.

Originally by: Andrea Roche

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Its not hard to press cloak every once in a while you know.
Its not hard to press cloak every once in a while you know.
Its not hard to press cloak every once in a while you know.
Its not hard to press cloak every once in a while you know.
Its not hard to press cloak every once in a while you know.

---

Which doesn't address the question I asked.

Do you find the new question harder to answer than the first? I'll change it a little to help you out.

While they are AFK, what mechanic are they using to affect you?

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Originally by: Bane Nucleus

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Maybe I am in the minority here, but I thought Mag's posts were pretty easy and to the point.

The issue seems to be what these cloaky players do when they are active. Perhaps I missed something in Eve, but I thought only active players can light cynos and hotdrop you.

If you come across this, can you not move to another system?

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Originally by: Bane Nucleus

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Wouldn't it be easier, and less impactful for the rest of Eve to just not allow cynos in anoms?

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Originally by: Draahk Chimera

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Who said anything about "any kind of pvp"? I thought we where talking about cloakers? There are still scramming rat frigs, ceptor pilots with godlike d-scan skills, ceptor-spammig the belts and so on. Hell, you can even camp my local with a bunch of frigs and dictors if you like. What I am against is the person who locks down a system with a cloaking ship then isnt even at the computer for hours then out of the blue attack someone in the belts as there is no defence at all from this behaviour.

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Originally by: Ingvar Angst

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Originally by: Andrea Roche

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This is part of my point. The cloaker should get uncloaked after a certain amount of time (with the ability to recloak manually after time has expired if they so wish) is my addition to balance this issue.

This effectivelly promote been active and dynamic gaming for players and getting rid off unbalance perma cloak.

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So how do you propose to balance the unfair intel advantage local gives when not even a cloaked vessel can hide in a system without everyone knowing he's there?

It's works beautifully in wormholes... you don't know he's there until you see the red appear on the overview or see the fleet warping to you on DScan that he led to you. You just need to be alert and ready.

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Originally by: Ingvar Angst

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Originally by: Andrea Roche

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You can still recloak. Cloaking is not removed. You can recloak. Everybody knows you are in system anyways now its not like they dont know. You are still pritty safe as long as you recloak.

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Way to miss the point. The idea of cloaking is to not be seen. Local gives too much intel in the sense that if you're in a system cloaked you're seen regardless. They know you're there, and they shouldn't.

Ideally, if you're cloaked you should disappear from local as though you left the system. After all, the cloak is masking all your other signatures, making you invisible, it should also mask your transponder so local can't find you. You could add to that a little... if you chat you send a signal that makes you reappear on local for a brief period of time.

That's how local and cloaking should work. If you're cloaked, you're "not there". You shouldn't konw if that neutral person that entered the system then disappeared left or cloaked.

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Originally by: Ingvar Angst

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Edited by: Ingvar Angst on 22/08/2011 13:06:02

Originally by: Andrea Roche

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so let me get this straight. You idea to fix afk cloak (overpowered) & local, is to litterally disapar the charactr from local making it even harder to spot. Now you r unscanable with ur change, u r perma unscanable and also invisible in local.

How is this gonna help afk cloaking? You removed yourself from local, it maybe a good idea. Now what about scaning and detection? Or r u gonna perma cloak there forever still without not been punished somehow? My point is inactivity needs to be punished and activity rewarded. Therefore cloak needs a timer nerf.

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Yes, that's exactly it. The only reason "afk cloaking" is seen as a problem is because "afk cloakers" are seen. They only reason them being seen is a problem is because people are too coddled and lazy in null to assume they're going to be attacked and prepare for it. They want the intel (and rat bounties) delivered to them with a pretty pink bow and pony wrapping paper. If you remove the cloaked vessel from local, now you have a real cloaking device working as it should... when cloaked, they're not there. A covops ship should be able to pass through a system unseen, such as they can do in wormholes. People will adapt in null. The ones with balls will continue to profit and make more as they fill in the void left by the weak ones who leave.

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Originally by: bolianavitchfantuleanpie

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Edited by: bolianavitchfantuleanpie on 22/08/2011 13:15:50
im not gona read what everyone said because theirs 9 pages of this crap.

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Originally by: Robert Caldera

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Originally by: Andrea Roche

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My point is inactivity needs to be punished and activity rewarded. Therefore cloak needs a timer nerf.

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eve is full of afk jobs (think of skill training for instance), afk cloak is just one of them. Get used to that.

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Originally by: Bane Nucleus

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If they ever do make changes to cloaking like some of the suggestions I've seen, I hope they keep it in null sec only. That would pretty much ruin the fun for wh space.

And just fyi, you don't need probes to scan down wh anoms. The onboard scanner gets those just fine.

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Originally by: Robert Caldera

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Edited by: Robert Caldera on 22/08/2011 13:40:33

Originally by: Andrea Roche

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i could also say that super caps can be killed and dont need a nerf. Just bring 3/5 carriers with neuts. But i will be ignoring the problem or message...

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this is that much offtopic, I dont even know what to reply on this one.

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Originally by: zljuka

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This topic is so fun. So many people that don't understand at all what a local is.

Local is a system-wide SCANNER, it shows all online players in given system, also allows to chat among them. It helps the ones that look for a fight as well as the ones that try to avoid a fight.

Next day you remove this scanner, most carebears leave the game, the ones that stay gonna hide. Players gonna abandon anomalies, cause they require lot of effort to maintain index and are indication that you can find carebears there. Logistics in 0.0 becomes a nightmare and prices skyrocket. Bots prosper, cause they don't need local to see who is in system, they read info from game client. You go on roaming and make 50 jumps without seeing any active ships, you may occasionally see wrecks, but there is no way to say, if it's a bot in system or is it a carebear, who noticed you coming.

So again, local is a scanner that helps to find targets as well as to avoid fights. If local as a scanner is an obstacle for you to find targets, then you must be doing something wrong. Most probably you fail at PVP and don't go to places where local actually helps to find targets, cause those targets bite back and are better organized.

Fail pvpers tears are much more enjoyable than carebear tears.

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Originally by: Gemberslaafje

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I think local in it's current form needs to go.

It's immediate, it can't fail (well, unless you're actually not looking at it i guess)

That's not what EVE's about, generally.

The problem is, what do you replace it with? A scanner activated by hand? but then what about cloakers?

Maybe a (contraband in empire) module which has a chance to delete you from local (for x seconds maybe)

It should reward active players, while giving PvPers and gankers a fair chance (not a sure-fire way) to get ganks/kills.

It's a very hard balance, which is not only very easy to upset, but maybe even harder to explain to both sides of the pie... Carebears want more safety, and no nasty cloakers, while PvPers want to sneak up on carebears and destroy them.

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Originally by: zljuka

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Originally by: Mag's

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How does this make it harder, to have a 23.5/7 cloaky alt two years ago?

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It's easier to make isk and to have alts. Number of alts has grown drastically, and dedicated afk-cloaker alts among them.

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Originally by: Robert Caldera

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Originally by: Andrea Roche

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Edited by: Andrea Roche on 23/08/2011 10:59:52
Well eitherway, its very likelly they will remove local therefore cloak will not be permanent XD.
So you all will have to leanr to click to recloak again mmmuuuuaaaahaaaahhaa

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you still didnt get it?? If local is "removed", there would be no point of being logged in while afk.

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Originally by: Gemberslaafje

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Originally by: Andrea Roche

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Originally by: Robert Caldera

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Originally by: Andrea Roche

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Edited by: Andrea Roche on 23/08/2011 10:59:52
Well eitherway, its very likelly they will remove local therefore cloak will not be permanent XD.
So you all will have to leanr to click to recloak again mmmuuuuaaaahaaaahhaa

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you still didnt get it?? If local is "removed", there would be no point of being logged in while afk.

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i am interested to know why you think not. I mean people will still need to rat or mine or people will still want "easy kills" so i really dont see why they wouldnt do it since the only thing that changes is local. You can still be afk cloaked and scan and make the attack.

Can you explain yourself why you think not?

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1. Why would you need to be online? You might as well be offline altogether, because your target can't see you anyway (remember, no local, and while you're cloaked there are no other ways to detect you currently)

2. When you scan and make the attack, you're not AFK.

You sure you know what AFK means?

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Originally by: Gemberslaafje

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Edited by: Gemberslaafje on 23/08/2011 14:23:52
Edited by: Gemberslaafje on 23/08/2011 14:21:51
1. Remove Local
2. Make a list of everyone within a decent amount of AU's, but considerably less then scan range. This list would include cloakers.
(I will take 10 AU's for this list as an example for this post)
3. Leave the rest as-is - for now

Situation 1: You are a cloaker, and want to gank stuff. If you jump into a system, you are only spotted if someone is within 10 AUs, or is scanning that gate. Otherwise, you will stay undetected, unless you move within 10 AUs from you, then they will know you are around.
You probe/scan something/someone out who is 12 AU's away from you. You engage warp. They will see you when you are already in warp. (to be continued)

Situation 2: You are a carebear, and want to stay alive. At some point, you pick up a neutral pilot within 10 AU's of you, but there's nothing on scan. Now, hopefully, as a good little carebear, you're aligned. In that case you can most likely instawarp. If not, well...

Situation 3 (continued from 1): You drop out of warp, and notice that one of the carebears wasn't aligned. You tackle it, and open your covert cyno. 4 blackops ships jump in, finishing the job. However, you haven't noticed the hostile PvP gang at about 20 AU's from you. Suddenly, your 'local' fills up with baddies already in warp towards you. Yoww..

Also, in this system, you won't notice a cloaker outside of 10 AUs. So if you do see a cloaker, you could just warp to the other side of the system and go on doing what you are doing.



The point is: it should be enough AU's to give people time to react, while preventing people from fleeing as someone jumps in.

It also promotes working together, cause you could of course just have someone cloak off the gate and tell you when someone comes through. That's effort, rather then scanning local chat.

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Originally by: Bane Nucleus

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As long such ideas stay in null sec and out of wh space, you guys can do whatever you'd like.

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Originally by: Gemberslaafje

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Originally by: Andrea Roche

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You obviously understood where i was going with my previous entry based on the answer. Yes the dscan even without local helps alot spcially when you are cloak and the others are not. Yes limiting dscan may work but you will have one up now cos they dont know you are there cos of the "perma cloak". Which means you can warp around cloaked to all planets and dscan and get a hit. And they still wouldnt know you are in system cos there are no probs or nothing to give you away. As an afk cloker you will know that between now and the next few hours there is gonna be someone rating in these well known ratting system but the person loging in or entering the system to rat ill never know unless you get uncloaked which you wont with the permacloak.

While you understood where i was going regretfully the others didnt/ignored completlly what i said.

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Part of the problem (respectfully) is that you are either very young or English is not your first language. And it's very easy to spot other people's mistakes/misunderstandings, while it's very hard to actually give unbiased alternatives.

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Originally by: Newt Rondanse

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Originally by: Gemberslaafje

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Originally by: Bane Nucleus

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As long such ideas stay in null sec and out of wh space, you guys can do whatever you'd like.

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The big disadvantage of wormhole space is that cynos are useless.

So the worst that can happen there is a fleet of Covert Recons.

In 0.0, you could actually end up with a fleet of carriers, dreads, blackopses, etc. from 1 covert ops guy.

---

Which means that with a neutered local, WH space actually ends up being safer than nullsec.

The reason real players dock up when they see a single neut in system is because of the risk of getting hotdropped. It is the only adaptation possible with the current state of the game. Without full, instant local the only adaptation possible for the risk of being hotdropped is to not undock in any system where it might be a risk unless you have a counter-drop at the ready.

That leaves nullsec populated by fools (who will run out of ships soon enough), wolves, and isolated pockets of big alliance holdings with every single inbound gate to their territory bubbled and camped to death to try to ensure that not a single thing ever gets through.

Neutering local without also converting cynos from a tactical tool to a strategic tool would not make nullsec any more attractive as a place to "live" in game.

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Originally by: Mag's

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Originally by: Andrea Roche

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While you understood where i was going regretfully the others didnt/ignored completlly what i said.

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We know what you meant, you were wrong.

Now your argument is that a cloaker would never warp to a safe spot, out of d-scan range and log there.

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Originally by: Ingvar Angst

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Originally by: Andrea Roche

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I am in my 30s. English is my first language. Calling me biased and not them who want not just the ability to perma cloak plus not to be visible in local. If i am a ratter and i am in a known ratting system, how do i ever know if he is there or how many are there in local if they are cloaked? No local, cant see him on scan either, no scaning probes cos they dont need them...At least in a wh all i needed was to be constatnly scaning for probes, which was easy and never got killed. In wh is easier. Cos in thr to find you they have to probe you and that is detectable, dscaning is not detectable.

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You sure you've ever seen the inside of a wormhole? You don't need probes to find the combat sites, just run your ships scanner. You can use DScan to narrow down exactly which site someone is running and drop in completely unannounced.

Sounds to me like the best possible "fix" for local is to have cloaked ships not appear on local and to simply get rid of cynos. You want to travel, get the frak out there and travel. You want to drop a fleet onto someone, fly your arse through the gates and go get 'em like men.

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Originally by: Ingvar Angst

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Edited by: Ingvar Angst on 23/08/2011 16:24:13

Originally by: Andrea Roche

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forgive me if i am remisd but i do belive that some things you need scan probes. It may be cos i was in different class of wh. But eitherway wh is outside the topic. Dont know how we hav swayed so far XD. LEts get back to the main topic.

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You need to probe out things like mags, gravs, radars, ladars... but combat sites, no. Ship's scanner detects them at 100%.

Edit: Mag's... this doesn't imply that I want to probe you btw... <...awkward...>

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Originally by: Bane Nucleus

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That is because his real issue was never about AFK cloaking. It was about cloaking in general, and how he is unable to defend against it.

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Originally by: Bane Nucleus

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In Null Sec, can't you cyno jam a system with some sort of pos mod? If this is the case, why don't you just run your anoms, rat, etc.... in that system? That would solve all your problems.

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Originally by: Bane Nucleus

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Correct. I do live in a wh. However, you are wanting to change a game mechanic that is far more important for wormholes than null sec. Just out of curiosity though, how many times have you had a cloaky drop a cyno on you?

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Originally by: Sports Bet

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Originally by: Andrea Roche

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I am in my 30s. English is my first language.

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In that case you need a new spelling penguin. Using proper syntax, spelling and grammar goes a long way into having people see that you might have a point.

In addition, your information seems... stretched, at best. You may need to make sure you know what you're talking about before you try to prove the rest of us that we're wrong and you are right.

Respectfully.

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